Transcript: Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” May 17, 2026

The following is the transcript of the interview with former Defense Secretary Robert Gates that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on May 17, 2026.

MARGARET BRENNAN:  Mr. Secretary, when you’re prepared, we’ll dive proper in.

FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ROBERT GATES:  Absolutely.

MARGARET BRENNAN:  So it is nice to be again right here with you, however there’s loads going on in the world. You stated in December we’re dwelling in maybe one in all the most, if not the most, harmful intervals in our fashionable American historical past. Why do you are feeling that approach?

SECRETARY GATES:  For the first time in our historical past, we face nuclear-armed adversaries in each Europe and Asia. When China finishes their strategic nuclear modernization, China and Russia collectively could have almost twice as many strategic nuclear warheads deployed as we do. We have by no means confronted a rustic, at least- not less than since the British Empire, that had better manufacturing and industrial capability than the United States. We haven’t confronted a rustic that was as technologically superior as we’re, forward of us in a number of areas, behind us in a number of areas, just about even with us in a number of others. So we face an adversary that’s extra highly effective and- and has extra non-military devices of energy than- than any adversary we have confronted, actually than the Soviet Union. So whether or not it is strategic communications or improvement help or commerce or no matter, the Chinese are throughout the world dealing with these items, so I believe when you take all these issues collectively and- and- and the nature of the two regimes, it is a very, very perilous time.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The two regimes, Russia and China–

SECRETARY GATES: Right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The chief adversaries, in your view, of the United States.

SECRETARY GATES: Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, President Trump was in China, standing throughout from Xi Jinping, and he referred, nearly jokingly, to the grouping as the new G2. He appeared to imply the two international powers. Do you assume that the U.S. and China are on equal footing? Is that how you’ll describe it?

SECRETARY GATES:  I do not assume so but. I believe China is a- you understand, the navy refers to China as a close to peer, and I believe our- proper now our navy energy is bigger than theirs, though they’re catching up and definitely forward of us by way of ship constructing and so on. But we- that we nonetheless have a lead economically, we nonetheless have a lead technologically, and, and I believe- I believe, you understand, now we have our personal issues right here at residence, however the Chinese have some actual issues as nicely, domestically, by way of their financial system and demography, and so on. So, you understand, they’re- they’re approaching our stage of energy, but- however I believe they don’t seem to be there but.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But the assembly itself appeared to be the message between President Xi and Trump. There weren’t lots of, as they name it, deliverables popping out of this summit. There was an announcement of working teams to review synthetic intelligence and speak about tariffs. What do you assume was completed?

SECRETARY GATES:  I believe that the principal goal for the administration, for the president, most likely was merely to maintain a lid on the relationship, to maintain a flooring underneath it so it would not deteriorate, to proceed the commerce truce that has existed for a couple of 12 months now. We’re nonetheless batting backwards and forwards numerous measures in opposition to one another, however by and enormous the commerce truce has- has been sustained. And- and so I believe avoiding a re-escalation of the financial battle between the two. I believe placing this flooring underneath the relationship, conserving it on even keel, most likely was the main goal of either side, frankly.

MARGARET BRENNAN:  Certainly, for the enterprise group, that was their concern.

SECRETARY GATES: And- and if they- if we are able to get some better enterprise alternatives, in fact, benefit from that, and we’ll see what occurs.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Xi Jinping’s language in that public assertion that was launched by his authorities was very sturdy on Taiwan. China considers it a core problem, as they described it. The U.S. nonetheless formally has this stance of strategic ambiguity, however do you assume the tone must shift just a little bit from the United States, given how sturdy the Chinese rhetoric is now?

SECRETARY GATES:  I believe the Chinese rhetoric has usually been sturdy in the previous in relation to Taiwan. Whenever we have made an arms gross sales to Taiwan in the previous, the Bush administration, Obama administration, and so on, the Chinese rhetoric will get very, very sturdy. So I believe- I believe Xi was reiterating the Chinese place on that. I believe it could be a mistake to vary the fastidiously worded place of the United States with respect to Taiwan. Any change in any respect, the nuances- that is a type of issues the place the specialists parse these items all the way down to the tense of the verbs, and so on. So, I believe- I believe conserving issues, the U.S. place because it has been was essential, and I believe every little thing I’ve learn to this point signifies that the President did that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, depart it open to query whether or not the U.S. would militarily come to the protection of Taiwan if China have been to maneuver on it–

SECRETARY GATES: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: –that must be an open query. Well, on paper, the president has made vital pledges to Taiwan by way of promised arms gross sales, not delivered on but. There’s one other $14 billion in proposed weapon gross sales that the Trump administration has delayed approving. Do you assume the president ought to inexperienced mild that?

SECRETARY GATES: I believe he ought to. I believe we must always go ahead with what- with what we have agreed with Taiwan. One of the issues that I’ve is even with respect to earlier arms gross sales, there’s a large backlog of weapons that now we have offered to Taiwan that now we have not been in a position to ship as a result of we do not have the provides, and so when you’re providing one other 14 billion, is that simply going to be added to the backlog, or is there a approach ahead by way of really getting these weapons to the Taiwanese? I believe one in all the- an essential factor that has occurred lately is getting the Taiwanese to focus on buying the sorts of weapons that will be essential to defend themselves in opposition to a Chinese amphibious invasion. In the previous, they needed the sorts of high-end weapons that will allow them to retake the mainland. Well, that is by no means going to occur. And- and so getting the, the previous Chinese-  the previous Taiwanese generals to adapt their considering to the sorts of weapons that the Ukrainians, for instance, have been utilizing, and so on.

MARGARET BRENNAN: — The HIMARS, the THADDS–

SECRETARY GATES: It has been an achievement, and, and the Taiwanese legislature has simply lastly reached an settlement to fund the buy of those weapons, so I believe- I believe we must always go ahead with it. It is in our personal approach our counter to President Xi’s sturdy assertion. Yes, you might have your place, now we have ours.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So you speak about the demand for weapons. There’s a much bigger downside with provide and readiness and entry to them proper now. A retired colonel in China’s People’s Liberation Army was just lately quoted in the New York Times saying the depletion of US stockpiles has “significantly diminished the US military’s ability to project its combat power.” They’re taking a look at what’s being utilized in Iran and Ukraine. I do know Admiral Paparo, the head of Pacific Command, has stated he would not see any actual prices on our potential to discourage China, however is not that fairly time dependent? It’s pretty nicely reported and established that there’s a lag by way of replenishing American weapons stockpiles. Isn’t that an issue?

SECRETARY GATES: It is an issue, and I, and I believe I believe this administration, particularly, has- has been very aggressive in working with the Congress in attempting to increase our protection industries and produce new corporations into the protection industrial combine that may produce the sorts of numbers of those weapons which are obligatory. I’ve learn that Ukraine goes to supply 7 million drones subsequent 12 months, or over the subsequent 12 months. We want that type of capability in the United States, and so, nevertheless it’s a matter of getting the factories constructed, increasing factories. Part of the downside in Washington is you get all the proper rhetoric about growing our potential to supply these weapons, however the cash is gradual to return, and it is unpredictable, and so what’s wanted is- is accelerated motion in really beginning to get these factories constructed and increase these capabilities.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But while you examine it to Ukraine, that is a wartime financial system, that is an emergency they’re responding to. You’re saying we have to act like it’s right here?

SECRETARY GATES: Absolutely, completely. We do have to replenish, and I’d say that I’m nicely aware- nicely away from it now, however primarily based on every little thing I’ve seen, I believe that the place now we have the actual shortfalls are in presided- precision-guided munitions, but in addition defensive missiles like Patriots, the THAAD missiles, and the Navy’s Standard Missile-3 which are our handiest, though very costly air and missile protection methods, and people are the ones which were expended particularly.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Recently?

SECRETARY GATES: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Secretary Rubio did inform one other community, although, that his perception is that China’s choice is to have Taiwan willingly be a part of the People’s Republic. Do you anticipate that to be the extra doubtless state of affairs that there’s kind of a gradual strangulation of Taiwanese democracy by the Communist celebration?

SECRETARY GATES: Let me put it this fashion, I believe- I believe the possibilities of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan are fairly low, notably over the subsequent a number of years, and partly as a result of Xi has other- different choices open to him that include- that contain far much less threat. So, they’ve surrounded Taiwan with ships, and in the air. They have proven their potential to shut off maritime and air entry to the island. They may create a blockade or a quarantine round Taiwan anytime they needed, what the Taiwanese name an anaconda technique, and it could strangle Taiwan over time. I do not assume they wish to go in and assault Taiwan. They do not wish to destroy the very chip factories they wish to take over. So, after which there’s- there’s cyber, there are all types of pressures. I additionally assume that the Chinese are hoping that over time the Kuomintang, KMT, which has been extra pleasant towards China, will probably be a car that may enable them over time to get an increasing number of affect in Taiwan and perhaps have some type of a Hong Kong model transition over a time frame. I believe- assume that the Chinese would far favor that type of, if you’ll, takeover of Taiwan than all the dangers inherent in a navy invasion. There is not one single Chinese basic or admiral as we speak that has sooner or later of fight expertise. The final time these guys fought was 1979 and the North Vietnamese- the Vietnamese gave them a bloody nostril. Xi has fired- has fired all these generals. He’s- there are actually no generals left on the Central Military Commission that type of oversees the entire factor. He’s fired- they usually’re slated for execution his final two protection ministers. So this isn’t an outfit that I believe he has huge confidence in proper now, and there- he is been combating in opposition to corruption of their navy ever since he grew to become president of China. So I’m unsure that he thinks his navy is the best in the world.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Or he is threatened by them.

SECRETARY GATES: Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Let me ask you about what’s taking place in the Middle East. The final time we spoke, final spring, we have been simply weeks away from that US-Israeli strike on the three nuclear websites in Iran. You stated at the moment, it was May, while you have been Defense Secretary, you have been involved {that a} strike on the nuclear program would simply purchase time, a 12 months or two, however it could not clear up the downside. Do you continue to consider that?

SECRETARY GATES: I believe the solely approach that we’re more likely to get the enriched uranium out of- out of Iran and produce about an finish to their nuclear aspirations is thru a negotiation. To go after that enriched- that buried 1000 kilos of enriched uranium, some large and sophisticated navy operation. And so I believe- I believe that the solely approach you do that and bringing strain to bear on them to power them into negotiations is certainly- is actually the solely path that appears to supply any probability of success, but- however I believe in the end that that the solely approach you really finish the Iranian nuclear program for good is to barter it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that provide of getting the UN go in and examine the websites and presumably take away the enriched uranium was on the desk earlier than the strikes have been carried out in February. They weren’t fairly at a deal, however that was being mentioned. Is that the place we find yourself at the finish of this, again with some type of UN company getting into and doing what the US and Israel haven’t been in a position to do?

SECRETARY GATES: I- I believe that the administration wouldn’t accept any association that didn’t embody getting that enriched uranium out of Iran, or as has- has been stated, or diluting it in a roundabout way that makes it not usable for- for a possible weapon.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But the diplomacy appears to be at a stalemate, and so does the navy operation, at this second in time, with Iran nonetheless having management over the Strait of Hormuz. Is it attainable for the President of the United States to stroll away and depart this for the Israelis to settle?

SECRETARY GATES: No, I do not assume he can stroll away. And no, I do not assume the Israelis can settle it. I do not assume, as highly effective as they’re, they do not have the type of energy the United States has, and- and I believe the President appears to have been very constant and really clear that certainly not can Iran ever have a nuclear bomb. Well, the solely approach you get to that goal is resolving this problem of the enriched uranium and any future plans for- for enrichment. I imply, I believe- I do not assume that the nuclear program in Iran poses an imminent risk. After all, we bombed it twice. The nuclear materials is fairly deeply buried, to- you’d need to spin up, use the centrifuges to spin it from 60% enriched to over 90% enriched. The centrifuges are very delicate, they’re additionally principally destroyed. Many of their nuclear scientists have been killed, so I do not think- this isn’t an issue for tomorrow, nevertheless it does, you understand, the President’s obtained it proper by way of it is a long-term risk that can’t be allowed to develop, and if left alone, they clearly are- have been attempting to maneuver in that route.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But it’s a large enough downside that it was clearly not going to be settled in 4 to 6 weeks, which was the timestamp that the American individuals have been advised to anticipate, by way of the length of battle.

SECRETARY GATES: I believe that there have been some unrealistic expectations.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re smiling as you say that. Do you might have a clear- have you ever heard a clearly articulated kind of heart of gravity to this operation, an finish purpose, a method? Because there are members of Congress who’re saying they don’t seem to be getting sufficient data from the administration on many of those factors.

SECRETARY GATES: Well, I believe a few of the justifications have- have modified over time, however one factor I believe there have been a number of issues which were constant from the very starting. One is to remove Iran’s potential to have a nuclear weapon. Another is to remove their navy capabilities to assault their neighbors. Third is to remove the functionality to help their surrogates, the Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthis. To sink their navy. I believe these are all- these were- have all been articulated as goals of this operation, and though the nuclear program has been dramatically broken and set again a very long time, I believe these different issues, loads has been completed.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Prime Minister Netanyahu advised my colleague Major Garrett over the weekend, on 60 Minutes, that the battle was not over, as a result of there have been nonetheless nuclear points, there have been nonetheless missiles that wanted to be dealt with, and militias. He didn’t appear to be saying he was accomplished.

SECRETARY GATES: I believe- I believe it could be exhausting to say the battle is over, I believe from both the standpoint of the United States or Israel at this level.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Prime Minister Netanyahu is somebody you had lots of expertise with over the years.

SECRETARY GATES: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you have been very essential of him in your 2014 ebook. You referred to his vanity and outlandish ambition in his method, particularly to Iran. You recalled a disagreement throughout a 2009 assembly, the place he argued an assault on Iran’s nuclear services would set off the Iranian individuals to overthrow the regime, and that Iran wouldn’t assault, he stated, American targets or oil services in the area. That was in 2009 and he was attempting to press an American president to do what this American president has accomplished. Was he overly optimistic then, and is he now?

SECRETARY GATES: He advised me all these issues in July of 2009 and I advised him then he was useless improper, that he was underestimating the resilience of the Iranians, that I believed he had been lulled into an unrealistic place by the absence of an Iraqi response when the Israelis destroyed the Osirak reactor in Iraq. he- he’d been lulled by the Syrian lack of response once we destroyed their- when Israel destroyed their reactor, that was throughout the second Bush administration, and I advised him–

MARGARET BRENNAN: But that is the battle he is been attempting to promote for years?

SECRETARY GATES: –and I advised him that, that this notion, that- that the- he was saying, then the regime is fra- that is 2009, the regime is fragile, it’s going to crumble at the first assault they usually will not have time to do the rest. I advised him then, he was improper.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The regime was traditionally weak at the second of those strikes. Is it attainable he’s- proper now, despite the fact that we’ve not seen these issues, like an rebellion amongst the Iranian individuals?

SECRETARY GATES: I believe that the probability of an rebellion, in fact, that is a type of predictions that may get you into lots of bother, however I believe the probability of a near-term rebellion may be very low, as a result of the besiege and the inner controls appear very a lot intact in Iran. You have not seen any demonstrations, or only a few demonstrations in the avenue. People are cowed, they’re afraid, and proper now they’re involved with how they- how they’ll eat and stay underneath the present circumstance. This is a regime that could not present water to Tehran earlier than the assault began. So I believe that- I believe when the hazard will come, will probably be a while after the- after the battle stops, however I additionally assume what you typically see in regimes like this isn’t a lot a change of regime from the streets, however that the regime itself begins to fracture, and that you’ve individuals inside the regime who wish to take a special tack, and so you might have an inner struggle for management.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Let me ask you about how America is dealing with its personal issues right here at residence. You have been a CIA director, you have been a Defense Secretary. How do you assess Secretary Hegseth’s efficiency?

SECRETARY GATES: Well, I’ll. I imply, I’m not into speaking about my successors, however I’ll say I wish to level to one thing constructive that I believe goes on that goes again to one thing we have been speaking about earlier. I believe- I believe the management in the Pentagon, and particularly the deputy secretary and the undersecretary concerned in acquisition are performing some essential and overdue issues by way of shaking up the forms in the Pentagon, in attempting to determine methods not solely to increase industrial manufacturing of protection supplies and to do it on-time and on-budget, but in addition to deliver and develop new new corporations into the protection and industrial enterprise which have new varieties of producing capabilities and that may crank out what we want a lot sooner and less expensive than that has been the case in the previous. I believe- I believe a few of the strikes to scale back the autonomy of the companies will- will assist this, so I believe a few of the issues they’re doing to attempt and- and shake up the protection industrial base is de facto essential and a excessive precedence.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But we’re right here at William & Mary, the place you might be chancellor. This is one in all the universities that Secretary Hegseth included on his listing of quote “woke breeding grounds of toxic indoctrination.” He has ordered U.S. troops can’t attend this faculty or establishments prefer it, together with ones he studied at Princeton and Harvard. He referred to them as “factories of anti-American resentment and military disdain.” What’s your response to that? Because I’m certain you might have some emotions, but in addition, what’s the impression on telling our combating power that they cannot attend a college like this?

SECRETARY GATES: Well, I believe he is badly misinformed. The truth is, it is a very military-friendly campus. We have lots of relationships with navy organizations right here in the Tidewater of Virginia. And even in Washington, we do lots of nationwide safety work right here, and now we have a really energetic ROTC program, I simply commissioned 10 officers final evening. So I believe it is a very, very military-friendly campus, and- and now we have excellent relationships with the companies.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But a “woke breeding ground of toxic indoctrination.” What’s the impression on our subsequent era of American troops who will not have entry to high universities due to his description?

SECRETARY GATES: Well, I believe they’ll, and I believe–

MARGARET BRENNAN: –you do not assume this lasts.

SECRETARY GATES: I believe, nicely, initially, I believe the sensible software of this has been one fellowship right here at William & Mary. We’ve obtained lots of different relationships going. And I believe that initially, I believe that is an entire mischaracterization of this- of this campus, but- however I believe the navy remains to be going to be energetic on U.S. campuses by means of the ROTC applications and numerous different nationwide safety applications.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But he is obtained this focus on the “warrior ethos.” I’m certain you have heard lots of what he has introduced. He summoned the generals to D.C., advised them he is uninterested in seeing fats troops and fats generals. He needs to weigh them twice a 12 months. He ordered a ruthless overview of the Judge Advocate corps, the navy legal professionals. He fired most of the inspectors basic, saying he deliberate to overtake the weaponized inner Pentagon watchdog. When you are speaking about the belongings you like, would you set any of these items on that listing?

SECRETARY GATES: No, I’ll say this. I imply, I- I fired a good variety of generals and senior individuals myself. The approach I dealt with it was just a little in another way, in the respect that I felt that I wanted to go in entrance of the press and clarify why I had taken these actions. And in the case of the place I, on the identical day, fired the Chief of Staff of the Air Force and the Secretary of the Air Force, I not solely had a press convention explaining why I had accomplished it by way of the mishandling of nuclear supplies and weapons, I went to a few completely different air bases to speak to airmen, assemblies of airmen to elucidate why I had relieved their superior officers. So I believe you want to have the ability to make modifications in personnel, however I believe the approach you do it, and is essential, and I believe it is essential to elucidate to individuals why you might have accomplished it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well there’s not a full Pentagon press corps, even current at the Pentagon lately for a information convention like that, with out getting particular permission to be on the premises proper now. He’s fired 16 navy officers, not less than, together with the Navy Secretary and the Army Chief of Staff General Randy George throughout the Iran battle. He pushed out the admiral at the helm of SOUTHCOM, the Chief of Naval Operations, the Air Force Vice Chief of Staff, the head of protection intelligence. Do you see these issues as obligatory disruption that in the end could have a constructive impression, or does it concern you?

SECRETARY GATES: Well, it issues me, however I additionally need to acknowledge that I do not know the rationale for these modifications. I do not know why these modifications have been made, and there could also be completely justifiable causes, however I’m, I simply do not know what they’re.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you assume that that ought to be defined to the public and to the Congress?

SECRETARY GATES: I believe, I believe that individuals, when, when you might have lots of modifications like that, yeah, I believe you, I believe there’s an obligation to elucidate, at a minimal, to the Congress the rationale.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The methods are not working that approach proper now.

SECRETARY GATES: No.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re being very diplomatic in your description of oversight of the Pentagon and Pentagon operations. Let’s ask about one other nation earlier than I allow you to go, as a result of I’m getting the wrap right here. The CIA director was simply in Havana, assembly with Raúl Castro’s grandson, alongside with the head of intelligence and the head of- the minister of the inside. The U.S. is providing Cuba help, they’re urgent for political change and floating the potential of indicting 95- 94-year-old Raúl Castro, who’s not in energy, however he is clearly influential. Does it matter to U.S. nationwide safety what occurs on this island?

SECRETARY GATES: I believe that truly the largest threat is that we find yourself with one other Mariel evacuation from Cuba that has tens of 1000’s of Cubans heading to the United States out of desperation, as has occurred plenty of years in the past. So I believe that is really at this level the largest risk. You know, the Cubans have- have had lots of safety individuals in Venezuela, they have been, they were- shaped the safety cordon round Maduro. He did not belief his personal individuals. They’ve accomplished this in different nations, so that they have been concerned in ways in which have impacted our nationwide safety and our pursuits of their engagement in different nations for a very long time. And- however are they an imminent risk to the United States? Other than in these, if you’ll, peripheral methods, I believe, I believe the principal risk is, frankly, is collapse.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Which the administration says they’re attempting to keep away from.

SECRETARY GATES: Right.

MARGARET BRENNAN:  Yeah.